Coming back to my original point, you said it perfectly with "compromising for the dramatic fiction of it all".
In consideration of that, with all things Marvel (up to Endgame) I knew
- who was the good guy
- who was the bad guy
- what each and every character's goal were
- how they plan to reach their goal
- how the fictional world worked
For a Superhero movie, that is enough for me to have it "make sense".
That was totally missing with the final of season 2. There was no compromise, just a decision by the writers for who the bad guy had to be, without any reason behind it.
That's a fine perspective to have, that's just not the way I see it. For me things need to add up, I need there to be less coincidence and more logic.
I know I might be asking for a lot but, for me, that's the bare minimum I would expect of any film. I don't make exceptions for genre... I also expect there to be something of a deeper aspect to it and most of all I need there to be consistent characterization or clear growth which would explain any changes in characters or their actions.
Not to say I don't enjoy a fun romp but if I were to choose between The Eternals and The Suicide Squad?! Well, one is cusping upon masterpiece status while the other has lots of ultraviolence and funny jokes in it.
In fact, as I was typing the above I was thinking about my rankings for Guardians of the Galaxy... For me it goes: 3, 1, 2... and that's because there were just too many redic coincidences in the 2nd volume, so much so that I was pretty checked out of it by the end. I could barely appreciate the strong themes for what I found to be badstorytelling.
Now, do I still enjoy movies with lots of stupid jokes in which little sense is required... For the most part, I had a good time watching Endgame... However, by the time I was walking out of the theatre I was already like, 'I don't think that added up.'
So, while I might've had some fun in the moment, all that enjoyment burst when I began to probe its edges. As a result, like a soap bubble with one twitch it disappears into thin air. Really, it's not as though I hate most of those flicks filled with air and redic superhero nonsense, I just don't consider them to be great works nor think much of them after the endorphins wear off. I differentiate the two, in places like my Letterboxd, with likes/hearts vs stars.
I prefer a comic book film, where things mostly add up, like Doctor Strange. Whereas Batman Ninja, for instance, was so ridiculously nonsensical my sides hurt from laughing. Sure it was objectively one of the worst Bat-flicks of all time, but I'd also give it 15 hearts if I could. But that movie leaned into the redic unlike the MCU flicks which try for a more realistic flavor. On that side of it though, I get stuck in the weeds when things don't add up. Often that will happen with some of the more popular ones, like with any of the MCU's Spider-Movies or Civil War and of course with Endgame, which is disheartening.
That being as it is, What if...? is the most nonsensical of the nonsense over at MARVEL and for that I kind of give it a pass... like, are you expecting logic from a Spider-Ham or Howard the Duck story?! I sure hope not ;)
Anyways, I'm just saying that I don't hold this streaming series to anywhere near what I would a competently made movie. I mean, they are barely anything but fanfic plus I've read the comics as a kid, they range from awesome Cap vs Conan] to straight trash White Power Cap]... So-yeah, this season wasn't great but I enjoyed it for what it was.
Annnnnd that two-part ending was pretty fun stuff.
by TheFizza posted 2 weeks ago
piraterepublics said:
stan lees legacy ended with end game.
Stan Lee was kind of a trash human being who basically stole sole credit and financial remunerations from creatives far more competent and innovative than himself... to that point, I think the whole MCU is an appropriate legacy.
by piraterepublics posted 2 weeks ago
was it good? sure if you are under 14 and that is what disney is selling it to.
just like the star wars franchise. its about who has the most money. CHILDREN who don't care about anything.
children who can cry until their parents pay.
children who will still be watching 30 years from now no matter how bad it gets.
how can i complain i saw every star wars movies and tv series, but i stopped paying after i turned 25 and realized it was really junk.
but there is good and there is MCdonalds good enough as you are too lazy to wait or pay for better.
season 3 really had nothing to offer, nothing really new. and heros like wonder woman 1984 who killed a god "just because she was wrong on everything but still needed to kill someone as a final boss"
75% of what marvel makes under "dismays" direction has been pretty much crap. but i will still watch some of it looking for a gem.
stan lees legacy ended with end game.
by WilliamDrakeMcGregor posted 2 weeks ago
TheFizza said:
Would you mind giving me an example for a movie / tv-series that, in your opinion, made perfect sense? ;)
Watched every Pitch Meeting btw :)
Nice, PitchMeetings are a good time!
As for series which makes sense... well, first I should add that no series I can think of makes perfect sense because they do have to make compromises for the dramatic fiction of it all. However, I'd say the following do a pretty decent job of making sense; TNG, Travelers, Fringe, Expanse, The Wire, The Good Guys ... heck, even Young Justice & Future Man.
If you're asking just about MARVEL, I'm not sure any are really sensical. But, taken with a grain of salt, my Top 10 are:
Agents of SHIELD
LOKI
Agent Carter
Agatha All Along
Cloak & Dagger
WandaVision
Moon Knight
Hawkeye
Luke Cage
Falcon & The Winter Soldier
Interesting. Travelers would be my personal number 1 here, one of the best shows I've ever watched.
(as for Marvel shows Luke Cage, WandaVision, Moon Knight and Falcon & The Winter Soldier would be dead last imho :) )
Thanks for that.
Coming back to my original point, you said it perfectly with "compromising for the dramatic fiction of it all".
In consideration of that, with all things Marvel (up to Endgame) I knew
- who was the good guy
- who was the bad guy
- what each and every character's goal were
- how they plan to reach their goal
- how the fictional world worked
For a Superhero movie, that is enough for me to have it "make sense".
That was totally missing with the final of season 2. There was no compromise, just a decision by the writers for who the bad guy had to be, without any reason behind it.
by TheFizza posted 2 weeks ago
WilliamDrakeMcGregor said:
Would you mind giving me an example for a movie / tv-series that, in your opinion, made perfect sense? ;)
Watched every Pitch Meeting btw :)
Nice, PitchMeetings are a good time!
As for series which makes sense... well, first I should add that no series I can think of makes perfect sense because they do have to make compromises for the dramatic fiction of it all. However, I'd say the following do a pretty decent job of making sense; TNG, Travelers, Fringe, Expanse, The Wire, The Good Guys ... heck, even Young Justice & Future Man.
If you're asking just about MARVEL, I'm not sure any are really sensical. But, taken with a grain of salt, my Top 10 are:
Agents of SHIELD
LOKI
Agent Carter
Agatha All Along
Cloak & Dagger
WandaVision
Moon Knight
Hawkeye
Luke Cage
Falcon & The Winter Soldier
by WilliamDrakeMcGregor posted 2 weeks ago
TheFizza said:
We must've watched different movies then, 'cause at least up to and including Endgame the story of the MCU movies made sense to me, at least I knew who was the bad guy and why...but as you said, that's a matter of perspective :)
Yup, we have different opinions... for me Endgame was the biggest bunch of nonsense I've ever seen, and I've seen The Quest. Almost nothing in really most of the Marvel flicks makes sense, least of all that mess of the time travel movie.
I mean, just watch about any MCU 'pitch meeting' video on YouTube, to get details on some of their ridiculous plot holes. That being said, it's clear from the MCU's success I'm the one in the minority here, but it bothers me when Zemo's plans rely on like 15 coincidences... or when Steve Rogers goes back in time to just watched every terrible event in history play out even though he can save folks, which goes against his characterization, it's all just more facepalming Marvel nonsense to me.
That doesn't stop me from watching, I just adjust my expectations to fit the nonsense they're pumping out over at Disney/Marvel. So-yeah, different opinions or perspective, my doesn't invalidate yours and vice-versa. :)
Would you mind giving me an example for a movie / tv-series that, in your opinion, made perfect sense? ;)
Watched every Pitch Meeting btw :)
by Kanga posted 2 weeks ago
The whole MCU is slop, the equivalent of fastfood at best, designed for the lowest common denominator, taken through endless committees to make sure nobody is offended.
Don't get me wrong, I stop by the local McD here and there just as I sometimes fall asleep to a guardians of the galaxy movie but we really should stop judging the quality of it and just seek better stuff.
by TheFizza posted 2 weeks ago
WilliamDrakeMcGregor said:
We must've watched different movies then, 'cause at least up to and including Endgame the story of the MCU movies made sense to me, at least I knew who was the bad guy and why...but as you said, that's a matter of perspective :)
Yup, we have different opinions... for me Endgame was the biggest bunch of nonsense I've ever seen, and I've seen The Quest. Almost nothing in really most of the Marvel flicks makes sense, least of all that mess of the time travel movie.
I mean, just watch about any MCU 'pitch meeting' video on YouTube, to get details on some of their ridiculous plot holes. That being said, it's clear from the MCU's success I'm the one in the minority here, but it bothers me when Zemo's plans rely on like 15 coincidences... or when Steve Rogers goes back in time to just watched every terrible event in history play out even though he can save folks, which goes against his characterization, it's all just more facepalming Marvel nonsense to me.
That doesn't stop me from watching, I just adjust my expectations to fit the nonsense they're pumping out over at Disney/Marvel. So-yeah, different opinions or perspective, mine doesn't invalidate yours and vice-versa. :)
by WilliamDrakeMcGregor posted 2 weeks ago
TheFizza said:
But this is the MCU, a cinematic universe where the only movie that actually makes sense is the Hulk, which is arguably the least liked of the entire franchise... So-yeah, when you say 'this is nonsense', I say 'it must be the MCU'... As a result, for what it was, it was a pretty-great time.
If I want something that makes sense, I won't watch a franchise movie or series. Unfortunately though this is how it is, I'm not saying this should be how it is but one can only work-around what we are given.
That's my perspective, I'm not implying any-of-y'all have to concur.
We must've watched different movies then, 'cause at least up to and including Endgame the story of the MCU movies made sense to me, at least I knew who was the bad guy and why...but as you said, that's a matter of perspective :)
by TheFizza posted 2 weeks ago
WilliamDrakeMcGregor said:
Great finale!
Even though the whole story of the ending didn't make any sense? Correct me, if it did and I missed it.
There was absolutely no indication whatsoever that The Eminences were bad or did something wrong. It was just decided for them to make the others look like the good guys...
They are a neutral force tasked to observe the universe and record it - the "heroes" know that... and yet, Carter, Ultron and everyone else didn't even give them the benefit of the doubt and ask a very simple question: Why did you confine Uatu?
If Uatu decides that this task no longer suits him because he wants to interfere, fine...maybe go talk to your boss and mentor about it?...don't just destroy the whole system? - What about the other Watchers?
Did it look good, yes...but without a good story there is nothing great about it.
Yup... annnnd this whole season was a Save The Cat tutorial, no doubt. But this is the MCU, a cinematic universe where the only movie that actually makes sense is the Hulk, which is arguably the least liked of the entire franchise... So-yeah, when you say 'this is nonsense', I say 'it must be the MCU'... As a result, for what it was, it was a pretty-great time.
If I want something that makes sense, I won't watch a franchise movie or series. Unfortunately though this is how it is, I'm not saying this should be but one can only work-around what we are given.
That's my perspective, I'm not implying any-of-y'all have to concur.
Follow
In consideration of that, with all things Marvel (up to Endgame) I knew
- who was the good guy
- who was the bad guy
- what each and every character's goal were
- how they plan to reach their goal
- how the fictional world worked
For a Superhero movie, that is enough for me to have it "make sense".
That was totally missing with the final of season 2. There was no compromise, just a decision by the writers for who the bad guy had to be, without any reason behind it.
That's a fine perspective to have, that's just not the way I see it. For me things need to add up, I need there to be less coincidence and more logic.
I know I might be asking for a lot but, for me, that's the bare minimum I would expect of any film. I don't make exceptions for genre... I also expect there to be something of a deeper aspect to it and most of all I need there to be consistent characterization or clear growth which would explain any changes in characters or their actions.
Not to say I don't enjoy a fun romp but if I were to choose between The Eternals and The Suicide Squad?! Well, one is cusping upon masterpiece status while the other has lots of ultraviolence and funny jokes in it.
In fact, as I was typing the above I was thinking about my rankings for Guardians of the Galaxy... For me it goes: 3, 1, 2... and that's because there were just too many redic coincidences in the 2nd volume, so much so that I was pretty checked out of it by the end. I could barely appreciate the strong themes for what I found to be bad storytelling.
Now, do I still enjoy movies with lots of stupid jokes in which little sense is required... For the most part, I had a good time watching Endgame... However, by the time I was walking out of the theatre I was already like, 'I don't think that added up.'
So, while I might've had some fun in the moment, all that enjoyment burst when I began to probe its edges. As a result, like a soap bubble with one twitch it disappears into thin air. Really, it's not as though I hate most of those flicks filled with air and redic superhero nonsense, I just don't consider them to be great works nor think much of them after the endorphins wear off. I differentiate the two, in places like my Letterboxd, with likes/hearts vs stars.
I prefer a comic book film, where things mostly add up, like Doctor Strange. Whereas Batman Ninja, for instance, was so ridiculously nonsensical my sides hurt from laughing. Sure it was objectively one of the worst Bat-flicks of all time, but I'd also give it 15 hearts if I could. But that movie leaned into the redic unlike the MCU flicks which try for a more realistic flavor. On that side of it though, I get stuck in the weeds when things don't add up. Often that will happen with some of the more popular ones, like with any of the MCU's Spider-Movies or Civil War and of course with Endgame, which is disheartening.
That being as it is, What if...? is the most nonsensical of the nonsense over at MARVEL and for that I kind of give it a pass... like, are you expecting logic from a Spider-Ham or Howard the Duck story?! I sure hope not ;)
Anyways, I'm just saying that I don't hold this streaming series to anywhere near what I would a competently made movie. I mean, they are barely anything but fanfic plus I've read the comics as a kid, they range from awesome Cap vs Conan] to straight trash White Power Cap]... So-yeah, this season wasn't great but I enjoyed it for what it was.
Annnnnd that two-part ending was pretty fun stuff.
Stan Lee was kind of a trash human being who basically stole sole credit and financial remunerations from creatives far more competent and innovative than himself... to that point, I think the whole MCU is an appropriate legacy.
just like the star wars franchise. its about who has the most money. CHILDREN who don't care about anything.
children who can cry until their parents pay.
children who will still be watching 30 years from now no matter how bad it gets.
how can i complain i saw every star wars movies and tv series, but i stopped paying after i turned 25 and realized it was really junk.
but there is good and there is MCdonalds good enough as you are too lazy to wait or pay for better.
season 3 really had nothing to offer, nothing really new. and heros like wonder woman 1984 who killed a god "just because she was wrong on everything but still needed to kill someone as a final boss"
75% of what marvel makes under "dismays" direction has been pretty much crap. but i will still watch some of it looking for a gem.
stan lees legacy ended with end game.
Watched every Pitch Meeting btw :)
Nice, Pitch Meetings are a good time!
As for series which makes sense... well, first I should add that no series I can think of makes perfect sense because they do have to make compromises for the dramatic fiction of it all. However, I'd say the following do a pretty decent job of making sense; TNG, Travelers, Fringe, Expanse, The Wire, The Good Guys ... heck, even Young Justice & Future Man.
If you're asking just about MARVEL, I'm not sure any are really sensical. But, taken with a grain of salt, my Top 10 are:
Agents of SHIELD
LOKI
Agent Carter
Agatha All Along
Cloak & Dagger
WandaVision
Moon Knight
Hawkeye
Luke Cage
Falcon & The Winter Soldier
Interesting. Travelers would be my personal number 1 here, one of the best shows I've ever watched.
(as for Marvel shows Luke Cage, WandaVision, Moon Knight and Falcon & The Winter Soldier would be dead last imho :) )
Thanks for that.
Coming back to my original point, you said it perfectly with "compromising for the dramatic fiction of it all".
In consideration of that, with all things Marvel (up to Endgame) I knew
- who was the good guy
- who was the bad guy
- what each and every character's goal were
- how they plan to reach their goal
- how the fictional world worked
For a Superhero movie, that is enough for me to have it "make sense".
That was totally missing with the final of season 2. There was no compromise, just a decision by the writers for who the bad guy had to be, without any reason behind it.
Watched every Pitch Meeting btw :)
Nice, Pitch Meetings are a good time!
As for series which makes sense... well, first I should add that no series I can think of makes perfect sense because they do have to make compromises for the dramatic fiction of it all. However, I'd say the following do a pretty decent job of making sense; TNG, Travelers, Fringe, Expanse, The Wire, The Good Guys ... heck, even Young Justice & Future Man.
If you're asking just about MARVEL, I'm not sure any are really sensical. But, taken with a grain of salt, my Top 10 are:
Agents of SHIELD
LOKI
Agent Carter
Agatha All Along
Cloak & Dagger
WandaVision
Moon Knight
Hawkeye
Luke Cage
Falcon & The Winter Soldier
Yup, we have different opinions... for me Endgame was the biggest bunch of nonsense I've ever seen, and I've seen The Quest. Almost nothing in really most of the Marvel flicks makes sense, least of all that mess of the time travel movie.
I mean, just watch about any MCU 'pitch meeting' video on YouTube, to get details on some of their ridiculous plot holes. That being said, it's clear from the MCU's success I'm the one in the minority here, but it bothers me when Zemo's plans rely on like 15 coincidences... or when Steve Rogers goes back in time to just watched every terrible event in history play out even though he can save folks, which goes against his characterization, it's all just more facepalming Marvel nonsense to me.
That doesn't stop me from watching, I just adjust my expectations to fit the nonsense they're pumping out over at Disney/Marvel. So-yeah, different opinions or perspective, my doesn't invalidate yours and vice-versa. :)
Would you mind giving me an example for a movie / tv-series that, in your opinion, made perfect sense? ;)
Watched every Pitch Meeting btw :)
Don't get me wrong, I stop by the local McD here and there just as I sometimes fall asleep to a guardians of the galaxy movie but we really should stop judging the quality of it and just seek better stuff.
Yup, we have different opinions... for me Endgame was the biggest bunch of nonsense I've ever seen, and I've seen The Quest. Almost nothing in really most of the Marvel flicks makes sense, least of all that mess of the time travel movie.
I mean, just watch about any MCU 'pitch meeting' video on YouTube, to get details on some of their ridiculous plot holes. That being said, it's clear from the MCU's success I'm the one in the minority here, but it bothers me when Zemo's plans rely on like 15 coincidences... or when Steve Rogers goes back in time to just watched every terrible event in history play out even though he can save folks, which goes against his characterization, it's all just more facepalming Marvel nonsense to me.
That doesn't stop me from watching, I just adjust my expectations to fit the nonsense they're pumping out over at Disney/Marvel. So-yeah, different opinions or perspective, mine doesn't invalidate yours and vice-versa. :)
If I want something that makes sense, I won't watch a franchise movie or series. Unfortunately though this is how it is, I'm not saying this should be how it is but one can only work-around what we are given.
That's my perspective, I'm not implying any-of-y'all have to concur.
We must've watched different movies then, 'cause at least up to and including Endgame the story of the MCU movies made sense to me, at least I knew who was the bad guy and why...but as you said, that's a matter of perspective :)
Even though the whole story of the ending didn't make any sense? Correct me, if it did and I missed it.
There was absolutely no indication whatsoever that The Eminences were bad or did something wrong. It was just decided for them to make the others look like the good guys...
They are a neutral force tasked to observe the universe and record it - the "heroes" know that... and yet, Carter, Ultron and everyone else didn't even give them the benefit of the doubt and ask a very simple question: Why did you confine Uatu?
If Uatu decides that this task no longer suits him because he wants to interfere, fine...maybe go talk to your boss and mentor about it?...don't just destroy the whole system? - What about the other Watchers?
Did it look good, yes...but without a good story there is nothing great about it.
Yup... annnnd this whole season was a Save The Cat tutorial, no doubt. But this is the MCU, a cinematic universe where the only movie that actually makes sense is the Hulk, which is arguably the least liked of the entire franchise... So-yeah, when you say 'this is nonsense', I say 'it must be the MCU'... As a result, for what it was, it was a pretty-great time.
If I want something that makes sense, I won't watch a franchise movie or series. Unfortunately though this is how it is, I'm not saying this should be but one can only work-around what we are given.
That's my perspective, I'm not implying any-of-y'all have to concur.